I got such a touching and moving email today which inspires me to post much more often…
Having read your web site and this conversation I cannot imagine a more deluded person I have ever come across in this world. What happened to you as you grew up? did your parents drop you on your head as a child? Personally i have nothing against people believing in a God or almighty creator of some form or another but when people start to believe utter bollocks that is directly contradicted by accepted science then I personally believe that they have got nothing positive to offer society and are in need of treatment…
And it went on. So if you are a praying person, I ask you to join me in lifting this poor soul up in prayer.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Wow. I’d view hate mail as a blogging accomplishment. I mean, no one even knows my blog exists, let along reads it. But hate mail means you’ve got readers — even if they are judgemental nitwits (I had a harsher word but assumed profanity would not be welcomed!).
Meg
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:50 pm
that shoud say “alone” not “along” — speaking/writing the english language alludes me as of late.
July 24th, 2007 at 10:46 am
I have had a similar experience. I have unfortunately not had the desired experience that I thought my prayer would lead to. Does anyone have advice on how to pray for such people? I feel great disappoint in my prayer life at the moment and any help in lifting people out of their godless lives would be amazing.
July 24th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Anon–what kind of result were/are you desiring?
I found the email Rowan received to be very disrespectful and judgemental — but I also am not a big fan of the implied superiority in “lifting people out of their godless lives.” It seems very counter-productive and judgemental to me, and frankly smacks of arrogance. As such, it is borderline offensive and is a major turn off to nonChristians.
My understanding is that Christians are charged with showing others the Way — not with beating them over the head with it and humiliating them into submission.
I think respect is the key to bring people to Christ (if that is your goal). And, respect is a two way street and you’ve got to give respect to gain respect. Without respect — ministry is ineffective because the recipient of the Word has been alienated.
July 24th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Meg: I would send you some hate mail…but I’m not very good at that kind of stuff!
Anon1: Sometimes the act of praying is as important as the result. If you are praying for people to accept Christ, then there’s always a huge chance that that person will never turn to Christ, and your prayer will not have been answered. But it is God’s will that EVERYONE be saved, and I believe the Holy Spirit prays so every second of the day. When we join in that prayer, we are seeking to make our will be like His will, our desires like His desires.
Also when someone acts hatefully towards us, we should respond in love, but that is often much easier said than done. Praying for someone helps me deal with the issues in my own heart that prevent me from loving that person as God does and as I should.
I confess I’m not the best at praying for people, but its something I strive to be better at!
Anon2: I agree that in our evangelism we must show people respect, and avoid any notion of superiority, but I don’t think Anon1 is being arrogant..and maybe you are being too quick to judge them…maybe.
I was once lifted out of a fairly Godless life. It was by the grace of God alone, and not on account of anything that makes me superior to anyone. I am now convinced that I and everyone else in this broken world, needs Jesus more than we need food or air, and am compelled to tell people so.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
anon1 again.
Not that I wish to start a religious debate, but could you please explain how the holy spirit prays. To me this view has little basis in scripture.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weaknesses; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:26-27
July 25th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
anon1 again.
My apologies, however I still do not undertand this.
Intercede means mediating, not praying as far as I know. The verse you quote does not refer to prayer, IMHO, but mediation, which is a different thing.
My knowledge of the Bible is not as good as I would like, so would not mind clarification on this.
July 25th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
I’m curious, to what conversation does this person refer?
July 25th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Anon1: We’re probably getting into semantics. It’s hard to imagine what it means for one part of the trinity to intercede for us with another part of the trinity. I call it prayer, because its like an intercessory prayer. When we pray in tongues we let the Holy Spirit pray through us, and this is the same interceding that Paul is referring to. Course I might be wrong
Crandaddy: He was referring to a email conversation I had with his friend, who also took objection to my blog and felt obliged to tell me what an idiot I was.
July 25th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Ha! I’m sure you could be a brilliant hate mailer if you just put a little effort into it.
By the way, I forgot to sign my name to the other comment — I’m actually Anon2 as well. Oops.
You are right though, I probably was quick to judge — but I don’t profess to be an evangelical christian, so I get a pass, no?
I’m a firm believer that a person’s relationship with God is between the person and God — we, on the outside, can’t know the depth of that relationship– so how could we possibly have any notion of how “godless” their life is? Besides, I’m always finding God in the strangest of places–and, as one of my friends likes to say, those who “seem” the furthest from God are usually the closest.
I think that living the Word, rather than preaching the Word, is the best way to “convert” nonbelievers. Of course, it is all easy for me to say — being as how I am on the outside looking in (and on the receiving end of evangelicals). It is always easier to criticize others — but I do assure you that the list of my faults is miles and miles long — and I do spend a fair bit exercising self-criticism!
Meg
July 26th, 2007 at 8:49 am
anon1 again. Tongues is something I have great problems with, not in a scriptural sense but in how it is practised. Many people who practise this tell me that the messages they are conveying may be positive towards Christ or highly negative, perhaps even Satanic. However, they ensure control of what is going on by having someone interpreting these prayers. My problem is that in this situation I am displacing faith in God, and replacing it with faith in those individuals, which makes me uncomfortable.
How do you practise tongues?
July 26th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Shall I call myself anon3. It’s catching.
To me a literal view of “tongues” is simply incorrect.
Mark 16:17-18: “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover”
This is one of the verses which supports “tongues.” As a Christian I am disturbed by the willingness of some Christians to take the tongues part literally, but to ignore the snakes part. I do not believe that we can have it both ways.
As far as I am concerned these things should not be taken literally and that Christian groupings who do not only bring ridicule upon themselves but are greatly damaging Christianity.
BTW, I came across this as I was trying to find out how ID was doing in the UK, and this site came up in my searches.
Jack
July 26th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Meg: You belong here in Northen Ireland far from the sort of American evangelicals who give Jesus a bad rep!
I think there has to be a balance of living it and preaching it. If I don’t tell people about Jesus then how does he get the glory? It’s too easy to become just a nice person who does good things, but then I get the glory and who can I save?
Bet I got more faults than you! Oh and I figured you were Anon2
Anon1: If someone is speaking in tongues and they are saying negative things about Christ, then it ain’t the Holy Spirit. When I am speaking in tongues I usually find myself led to worshipping God in my mind – not thinking about the words and noises coming out of my mouth. Its usually just something I do on my own – not some great public message from God than requires someone to interpret it.
If it causes me to worship God then I can’t see how its a bad thing!
Anon3 / Jack: I’m assuming you’re coming from a cessationist point of view – i.e., all the gifts of the Spirit ceased soon after the events in the New Testament.
The best source of info on the gifts is given by Paul in 1 Cor 12-14, to quote..
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
I think it’s odd to say that if we aren’t fufilling one part of Jesus’ prophecy about those who believe in Him, then we CANNOT be fufilling another part.
There is always a danger in letting personal experience become doctrine. You haven’t experienced speaking in tongues but shouldn’t you be very careful about saying that other people doing so are wrong? Are they deluded? Possesed? What if you are wrong? What did Jesus have to say to the scribes in Mark 3 who accused him of being insane or possessed because of the miracles he was performing?
Anyway, I’m glad to hear I’m putting out the case for ID here in the UK!
July 26th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
I’d like to believe that I just belong in Northern Ireland, full stop.
Too bad it isn’t likely to happen. Oh well.
What faults, my dear Rowan, could you possibily have –other than not recognizing how fabulous you are? No, I’ve got you beat, hand down, in that competition.
Meg
July 27th, 2007 at 8:25 am
Jack again.
You are correct about my leanings. Perhaps I am more careful in my approach to scripture. There are so many wonderful things in God’s Word that those with a clear minded way can fully understand the meaning of. However, to me, there are a lot of things which are not completely clear and that in the big scheme of things are not huge issues. From healing to tongues, I feel that we are dealing with ambiguous issues. There are far too many charlatans amongst Christians today who have been revealed to be so when it comes to healing. This has led me to seriously revise my faith in regards to my fellow Christians and have come to view faith healing, as it is now practised, as something which is very far from God. It seems clear to me that the majority of Christians who practise this on a grand scale, at least in the US, do not do so to heal, but to gain financial gain. As a Christian this saddens me, but I prefer to face things as they are.
Anyway, sorry for being so negative. As for ID. I came across you on a site where you were referred to as a “Christionist %&*£”. Having read through your site I can definitely say that you are far from it, and that your grasp of science is certainly better than the person who wrote that comment.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Meg: You embarrass me
. Anyway, God’s grace is sufficient for both of us and all our faults!
Jack: I think what you say about about charlatans is true – there are a lot of people out there making money out of religion. There is the whole “Word of Faith” movement that claims health and prosperity is the right of all believers and a good measure of how much faith a person has – it’s so counter to what Jesus preached!
I don’t think God tells people to refuse medical treatment – afterall Luke was a physician. We shouldn’t be trying to test God, and healing God should never cost us money! But the Bible does tell us to pray for the sick…
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. (James 5)
I’ve known lots of people who have experienced healing through prayer and I’ve also seen people struggle through sickness and not be healed. I’m sure you pray for the people you care about when they get sick – so why do you say that you don’t believe that God heals?
July 27th, 2007 at 9:29 am
Jack again.
I did not say that God does not heal, however I believe that we, as Christians should be honest. I think that it is impossible to tell that God has healed anyone.
I have on to many occasions witnessed my fellow Christian claiming that God has healed family members. My problem is that those same family members were undergoing medical treatment. In such circumstances I feel that we should show our gratitude to the medical professionals, and thank God for those people. Do you have experience of healings where people were not also undergoing medical treatment?
July 27th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Sorry didn’t mean to make you blush!
Meg
PS. I’m impressed that other blogs are talking about you –even if they are saying not so nice things.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Jack: if I have a friend who is sick and I pray for them – should I not have faith that God will heal them? I have two good christian friends who are doctors and they would be the first to pray for people when they are sick.
I wrestle with this issue a lot because medical problems in my own life that haven’t been healed, but I know of lots of people who have experienced healing that can only be explained by God’s intervention. I don’t though believe that God is in the business of proving himself to people. Faith must come first.
PS. Do you have link to that site that called me christionist £$^&? I’d like to see that
July 30th, 2007 at 9:33 am
A skeptical, but curious outsider. You say you have experienced friends being healed in a way that can only be explained as divine intervention. Could you please detail this. Don’t bother with names. It is one thing to make claims, but backing them up is another.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Jack again. Sorry if I am troubling you. My problem is that God above all things values truth. I struggle with the question of how God views those who label cures that result from medical intervention as being “faith healings.” I accept that these are issues that some Christians are unwilling to face up to, but I for one feel that it is time that we did.
Unfortunately, I cannot find the link. I was at an internet cafe, so cannot trace what I was doing. The site was linked from a forum on uncommondescent, or else it was on a formum their. I can’t remember which.
July 31st, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Anon4: I doubt anything I could say would make you less skeptical, and I’m not going to list the details of friend’s medical problems. But check out http://www.out-there.org/. It’s a healing ministry on the streets of Coleraine (are you Norn Irish?). I’ve met some of the people that do it and they are absolutely sincere and have seen many people healed physically and emotionally.
Jack: God also values faith. I am sure God is not impressed when people make up stories on his behalf, even if they are well meaning. But I also think God is not happy when we don’t even have enough faith in Him to pray for healing, or enough faith to say “God healed” me He does heal us.
If you were a Christian in Africa you would probably have a very different attitude. Most Christians there pray for healing without thinking twice, because expensive medical treatment is just not an option. They HAVE to put their faith in God and from what I’ve heard, the see a lot more of God’s healing
August 1st, 2007 at 8:08 am
Skeptical outsider again. The site mentions people witnessing Jesus causing people’s legs to visibly lengthen. What amazes me is the willingness of people to swallow such stories. If such things do occur then why can someone not video them. Surely, in the age of mobile phones we someone there could have caught such an incredible event on camera.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:02 pm
The only mention of that I can find is on http://www.out-there.org/stories26.htm, which is a story about an elderly woman with painful arthritis in her hip, who got healed and left the place jumping for joy. Is that easier to believe than legs lengthening?
August 7th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
skeptical outsider again. As Carl Sagan said “Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.” It’s quite simple. No evidence has ever been put forward to support faith healing. Plenty of evidence has been put forward to show how evangelicals make credulous members of the public think they have been healed.
Simple scenario. There are a bunch of sick people in the room. All receiving medical aid. A reasonable number will get better through the medical aid. If they do they thank God for healing them. If they do not they ask themselves why they do not have enough faith.
If you wish to believe fairytales told by rather unsophisticated people go ahead. These miraculous healings are quite simply nonsense. If as some people believe God is literally healing thousands of people daily then surely somewhere someone is documenting this. If a woman is leaving a healing session jumping for joy as described then this is an astonishing event which ought to be investigated by vast numbers of medical professionals. In reality the people carrying out that healing should be ashamed of themselves as they are merely prolonging the suffering of that woman.
Let’s make this clear, you are claiming that her arthritis was totally healed. This would be a medical first and I for one am shocked that this has not made it to the headlines.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Nothing needs to have extraordinary evidence to be true.
It’s ironic that Carl Sagan and so many other rational skeptics today choose to believe in extraterrestrial life, despite there being to date absolutely no evidence let alone extraordinary evidence.
Maybe miracles happen all the time and don’t make the headlnies because no-one believes they happened. Maybe there are aliens on other planets.
People choose what they want to believe, choose what evidence they want to see.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:53 am
“People choose what they want to believe, choose what evidence they want to see”.
That’s a pretty post modernist thing for a fundamentalist to come out with. Did you really mean,
“Non-Christians choose what they want to believe, choose what evidence they want to see”.
Surely, your religious beliefs have a stronger claim to truth than this statement implies.
August 11th, 2007 at 11:14 am
To be clear, I’m not denying that there is generally an element of rational decision to a person’s beliefs. I just think there is almost always an element of choice. I get frustrated at materialists who claim that their beliefs are 100% objective inferences from evidence. I think that is delusion.
There has to be an element of free choice to Christian faith or it is worthless. That’s why I get equally frustrated at Christians who reduce Christianity to a set of “provable” facts that must be accepted.
Even Satan accepts the facts.
However, I’m certainly not a relativist. I choose to believe that the Gospel is absolute truth
August 14th, 2007 at 10:25 am
Yes, Satan. What a fine creation of God that was? To think that all of history was the result of a woman stupidly talking to a snake in the Garden of Eden, some 4000 years after the domestication of the dog. I’m guessing that you are one of the genuises who believe in the literal truth of Noah’s Ark. Of course there is an element of choice in all of this, and we can choose to accept basic geometry making fitting all the animals on earth a mathematical impossiblity, or well, I don’t know the alternative.
You clearly know nothing about science. 100% objective inferences. Scientists continually try to test their ideas. When a physicist puts forward a theory for the cosmos they welcome experiments which could completely refute them. How many religious people do such things?
August 14th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Satan was a fine creation. A beautiful angel, the Morning Star, chief worship leader in Heaven. His free choices have made him what he is today.
The story of Noah is incredible, but given almost every culture on planet earth has some kind of Noah story, and the earth is full of geological and paleontological evidence of a catastrophic event, I find it relatively easy to believe…
…compared to the best chemical evolution theories, like RNA World. You are either not aware of the difficulties with such theories, are deluding yourself, or you have more faith than me.
And you appear to be very naive about science. The history of modern science has a common theme – theories with philosophical implications get judged on those and rejected until the evidence is overwelming.
The classic example is the Big Bang theory – rejected by almost every major cosmologist, and accused of being a religious theory because 1) it provided a creation momoent for the universe, 2) its inventor was a Catholic Priest. It took many years, but its now generally accepted as fact.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:18 am
Could you possibly explain how it is mathematically possible to fit all of the species of animals on earth in to a boat?
August 15th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
The big bang is “generally accepted as fact”. You are a young earth creationist, so reject this fact. Unless you are ill informed enough to think that a 6000 year old universe fits in with the big bang paradigm.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
I can’t explain how the pyramids were built given their enormous size and precision, but they exist regardless.
I don’t know for sure what happened with Noah and the Ark, but consider…
1. The dimensions of the ark recorded in the Bible – 500 feet long and 45 feet tall
2. It may only have taken the “created kinds” equivalent to families in biological classification
3. It may have taken only young animals which don’t take up that much room.
Can you explain for me how the first DNA based organism evolved? No.
Regarding Big Bang Theory…
It’s called the Big Bang Theory, not the Big Bang Fact. People like you would have said the universe being eternal was a fact, before they decided the Big Bang was a fact. There are still big problems with the theory like its inability to explain the distribution of matter in the universe.
Normally I love having these kind of pointless debates with people like you who think people like me who question anything in mainstream science are stupid. But I’m very busy at the minute finishing off my Ph.D…so please find another outlet for your frustrations with life.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
There are between 30 and 50 million species on earth. Please put your PhD mind to work on this rather basic issue. A child could understand the mathematics involved. It is impossible to fit all of the species on to the ark. It is not an issue of debate.
August 15th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
I love how you state “facts” about stuff you know little about. Is there definitely 30-50 million species on earth? A 2002 study published in Nature suggested the number was more like 4-6 million.
By the time you discount the bacteria, plants, algae, fungi, fish etc that wouldn’t have been in any Ark the number would be around 1 million, and the vast majority of those would be tiny insects.
Anyway most Creationists including myself believe that God created a relatively small number of baramin – created kinds, and these diversified to all the species we see today (these are roughly equivalent to family in biological classification)
Thus Noah may have only needed to take about 2000 types of animal onto the Ark.
My Ph.D mind has to get back to the Ph.D now. Bye.
August 16th, 2007 at 8:27 am
I have never heard something as stupid in my entire life.
“God created a relatively small number of baramin – created kinds, and these diversified to all the species we see today (these are roughly equivalent to family in biological classification)”
How the hell can you be stupid as to reject the theory of evolution, yet accept the most extreme form of punctuated equilibrium. You are stating that 2000 species, and let’s not mince words, evolved to what we see today. No evolutionary biologist would believe that this is possible. For an anti evolutionist to believe this is a sign of grave stupidity. Go back to your PhD, but more importantly try to get back to reality and perhaps a psychiatrist.
August 16th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Robert (assuming it’s you), in all our conversations so far, all you have demonstrated is your inability to tolerate views which contradict your atheistic worldview.
You are clearly a very insecure person. Please find someone else to call stupid, until after Sept 15th. Bye.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:53 am
It’s not Robert. Not even sure who that is. If by insecure, you mean that I am afraid that religious bigotry is a grave threat to the world at the minute, then yes I absolutely am. As for insecurity that somehow or another we are going to overhaul all of astronomy, cosmology, biology, geology, history and pretty much every form of science existing and replace it with a story about a talking snake and a bearded man on an ark, then no I am not insecure in the least. The achievements in these sciences make those of religion look pathetic, and they are the truly glorious discoveries of mankind and need to be affirmed every second of the day. Without them we would live in darkness.
August 17th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
No – I mean by insecure that you you feel threatened by other people having beliefs that contradict yours. So you’ve convinced yourself that it’s all as simple as science (good) vs religion (bad), ignoring the fact that countless great scientists were Christians – Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin. Even Einstein believed in God.
the truly glorious discoveries of mankind and need to be affirmed every second of the day. Without them we would live in darkness.
You realise how much that makes your concept of science sound like a religion?
Please take your intolerance elsewhere.